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[Valley Exile]

http://www.sharonherald.com/local/local_story_265221252.html

We already paid for I-80 with our gasoline taxes, and now they want us to pay for it again.

[Lifetime]

This is the problem with elected officials and their acolytes not knowing what "NO" means. I have attended several meetings with the PA Turnpike Commission and the people, businesses and local legislators have said "NO". They keep dressing this skunk up and expecting a different outcome... DUHHHHH.
 
Here is a thought to ponder. Con. Gerlach from the 6th Dist. and running for the GOP nomination for Governor said something interesting. Now I don't neccessarily agree but he said that those on the I80 Corridor shouldn't take the total brunt of this. He said that ALL Interstate Roads in PA should be tolled. Can you picture the total outcry???
 
Pennsylvania | 1,759.34 mi. 

• I-70,  I-78, I-79, I-80, I-81, I-83, I-84, I-86, I-90, I-95, I-99, I-176, I-276, I-376, I-476, I-576, I-676
  I-279, I-579, I-378, I-180, I-380, I-283, I-195

not to mention a part of 60 and 76 are tolled already.
 
$$$$$$$$ I don't think so.... businesses that rely on the trucking, travel(buses) and basic transportation will either add the cost to the product or service, or move where it is more business friendly. Either way, it is the citizens who pay, either in the extra costs or loss of jobs. So much for the tax base.
 
Well here are the local teams in the State Legislation... Rep. Brookes, Stevenson and Longietti and State Sen. Robbins. All were and still are against this plan. Con. English and Peterson were the Fed level and they also were a NO vote. Now English and Peterson are gone.... Hmmmm I wonder where Con. Dahlkemper and Con. Altmire are on this??
 
Now the PA Turnpike Commission also have new faces where they resend their application. Sounds like the old story, "If Dad says no, we can still ask Mom." I can only sy is "Be Vigilent" and keep your eyes and ears open for the next shoe.

[NightmarePatrol]

Another interesting analysis in today's Trubune about why this is not a good idea.

[Lifetime]

The Herald and the local Radio/TV reported on the meeting that was hosted by Prof. Miller??? Of Grove City College. He layed it out very well why this would not and does not work. It seems that the PA Turnpike Commission makes MORE THAN ENOUGH presently to cover costs and then some. Hmmmmm where is all that "extra " cash going now??? And their figures also show that they make MORE now than if they actually tried to toll 80. I am at a loss on all the stupidity.

[Puffin]

I80 would be tempting target to toll. Moving freight East/West to and from NYC, Jersey, and Philly, you dont have a lot of choice of alternate routes. I70 is already tolled,as is I90 in NY. 

[lifefeedsonlife]

Hmmmmm where is all that "extra " cash going now???

That is the $64 question ain't it?

So - when government purposefully obfuscates and abuses their citizen given authority. What happens then? When they are charges with investigating themselves based on voting on the investigations - and then they don't do it - what then? The longer I look into things - the more I'm in favor of term limits.

[Lifetime]

I am a firm believer in the fact that we now have "TERM LIMITS". It is 2 years for Congress, 6 for Senate, 4 for POTUS and sad to say.... LIFETIME for US SUPREME COURTS. The whole damned problem is individuals wanting "TERM LIMITS" seem to only want term limits on everyone elses legislators and not their own.
 
Our system of term limits is directly proportioned to the amount of eligible voters actually VOTING!!!! Remember this... 50% of the eligible population is registered, 50% actually vote.... so shy of other reasons... 25% of the eligible people vote and the person elected, only needs 12.5+% of the eligible voters to win in a 2 way... less if other parties are involved... Pretty sick HUH??
 
I laugh when a candidate brags about a "MANDATE" electing them.
 
Hmmmm 330,000,000 people in the USA approx... less than 165,000,000 are registered to vote, less than 82,500,000 vote and in a two way the winner needs LESS THAN 41,500,000 votes..... Now remember...these are approx. and close to optimum which is impossible in our country. So a possibility of the other parties taking POTUS votes... we have probably 30,000,000 or less dictating our POTUS's. 10% of the total population..... picking the POTUS!!!!     Is this that far off the mark?
 
 
 

Hmmmmm where is all that "extra " cash going now???

That is the $64 question ain't it?

So - when government purposefully obfuscates and abuses their citizen given authority. What happens then? When they are charges with investigating themselves based on voting on the investigations - and then they don't do it - what then? The longer I look into things - the more I'm in favor of term limits.

[Puffin]

NP, that article and the moves being made are good for a laugh.
A couple of State legislators, whose districts happen to be transected by I80, manage to wrangle some public money to fund a study with the narrow focus of determining economic impacts to the I80 corridor communities, if I80 is made a toll road.
In the meantime the Penna Turnpike commission generates revenue thru tolls on the Turnpike in excess of operating  and capitol improvements cost by $88M.
By some stange otherworldly coincidence, the I80 impact study determines that making I80 a toll road wouldn't be necessary at all if they got (you guessed it) $88M.
Now giving them all the money means that everyone else is out of luck.All the while the entire purpose of making I80 a toll road, was to provide funds, in addition to the Turnpike surplus, to fixing the rotting state infrastructure, including I80.
So what is the economic impact of a collapsed infrastructure?

[Jayhawk]

And the turnpike commission spent HOW many millions LOBBYING against selling its turnpike and FOR tolling I-80?

[Jayhawk]

In the meantime the Penna Turnpike commission generates revenue thru tolls on the Turnpike in excess of operating  and capitol improvements cost by $88M.

And when the turnpike opened in the 1940s, didn't they announce that tolls would end as soon as it was paid off?

[Lifetime]

INFRASTRUCTURE? These leeches as well as others who thinks that tax and toll is the answer to their problems, must think we...THE PEOPLE , are braindead.
 
Here is the problem.... TO MUCH MONEY that appears to be in their own PRIVATE accounts. No HONEST OVERSIGHT on spending, Unbridled expansion of the WAGE/SALARY/BENEFITS part of the overall programs, and... now get this.... thinking that we... THE PEOPLE... have big pockets to correct the problems and make up for their unending stupid decisions.
 
Here is the answer.... NO TOLLS. Let them look within for the money. The turnpike was suppose to have the tolls stopped after it was paid for... explain to me then ..WHY have almost 4 GENERATIONS have been able to RETIRE from that Money Pit and who has the totals of monies taken in from day one and the output as well?
 
Yes, we have an infrastructure problem, we have for decades. BUT NO ONE has had the BALLS to question the spending of OUR money. When you have no real accountability of the funds... things go off track real easy. It is time to hit the "Mule" in the head with a 2X4 to get it's head going in the right direction. They have raped us long enough.
 
 
 
Our problem.... we "THE PEOPLE" never really cared what happened as long as we were working and costs were "acceptable". Now we have rampant unemployment ( with more to come) and we are having problems just taking care of our own bills at home. WE have to tighten the belt and cut out the BLING... it is time that they do the same... Our Bridges and roads didn't get this way because there was NO MONEY!!! They got this way because they got greedy and seemed to need the BLING.... and WE never questioned it. WE were suppose to be TRUSTING them and now we find we shouldn't have. SO... I say suck it up and clean out the NON EGG LAYING CHICKENS, GRAMMA NEEDS SUNDAY DINNER!!!    A clean hen house tends to operate better when  consequences were place over the heads of those who are intrusted to do their jobs.. for THE PEOPLE!!!
 
If I sound angry, I am. I remember the Johnstown Flood Tax as well as the turnpike tolls. There is something to the saying... "The gov't never met a tax they didn't like"  and kept forever. Hell...even the Income Tax was originally TEMPORARY.
 
So... how long do you want to FEED THIS PIG before we need bacon? We PAID enough to keep the infrastructure in repair and replacement... it is them who funnelled the money to "other" projects and programs.... and WE allowed this with no "consequences".
 
Stepping off my soapbox....
 

NP, that article and the moves being made are good for a laugh.
A couple of State legislators, whose districts happen to be transected by I80, manage to wrangle some public money to fund a study with the narrow focus of determining economic impacts to the I80 corridor communities, if I80 is made a toll road.
In the meantime the Penna Turnpike commission generates revenue thru tolls on the Turnpike in excess of operating  and capitol improvements cost by $88M.
By some stange otherworldly coincidence, the I80 impact study determines that making I80 a toll road wouldn't be necessary at all if they got (you guessed it) $88M.
Now giving them all the money means that everyone else is out of luck.All the while the entire purpose of making I80 a toll road, was to provide funds, in addition to the Turnpike surplus, to fixing the rotting state infrastructure, including I80.
So what is the economic impact of a collapsed infrastructure?

[Puffin]

You guys ought to be politicians.Complain about everything, fix nothing.
 
The problem is the infrastructure, particularly the highway system, has exceeded it's design life. Don't forget dams, water/sewage systems, communication nets, pipelines ect. Applying leeches to it won't cure the problem.Nor will term limits. The cure is money.
So how do you raise the money. State and local gov't cover about 75% of the costs.
Raise taxes on gas or other things?
Make the user pay thru toll 's.
Actually its gonna be all of the above, and more.
 
I  think doing nothing will turn the whole state into a Detroit.
 

[Lifetime]

Complain??? All I do??? not.... I vote for one thing... everytime and to the best of my ability. I attend as many meetings as I can ( have seen my ugly vocal mug on news clips of the meetings) to do what AMERICANS are suppose to do ..be PRO ACTIVE. I have seen how these pukes operate and as long as WE THE PEOPLE keep allowing it.... maybe becoming DETROIT never was far off our mark. Do we deserve it?? Maybe we do to a certain extent. We sat on our Arses and let the "other guy" do what we should have.
 
I live in Sharon... have you been blind to what has happened to us with our Water/Sewage system??? I pay over $50/month to send my crap to the plant. Not understanding your Communication Net problem.... Costs??? Get dial-up and a Tracfone and quit replacing texting with actually talking to people. Understand what Politicians and Community/Business leader can't seem to understand..... THE TURNIP IS DRY!!!! Cut your own "budget" ... we have.
 
The crux of this biscuit is... WE can no longer AFFORD the tax/toll/fees.
 
A gas tax is BS and you can't be so dense as to think the money would ONLY be used for what is designated. If you do believe that I have property in Sharon worth the time/trouble/money for you to invest in.
 
Case in point.... the derelict representatives of the Turnpike ...at a meeting in Grove City was asked by me... "Will the toll monies collected on I-80 be used for PATCO and SEPTA?"...answer "NO"...next question from me... "Can you assure me that those funds will NOT find a "Backdoor" method to be given to PATCO and SEPTA?" answer... "We cannot assure you of that." Nuff said.
 
Fact...they already have enough cash flow to have taken care of the infrastructure. Fact ...they just P!SSed it away on other BS projects. You do the math...seems Miller did.
 
What if they Tolled I-80 and nobody used it? Thinking about rt6, 62, 322... and all of those other roads that can't sustain the extra traffic. Talk about an "infrastructure" problem. So now what??? a tax on Bovine Flatulence?
 
PS.... I do use 80 when I can and avoid 76 like the plague so guess what I will do should it be tolled??? I buy my gas in Ohio ($ .30 lower in cost per gallon right now) .... dollars are short and need to be stretched. Loyalties become strained when my family suffers.... What about the rest of you?
 
 

You guys ought to be politicians.Complain about everything, fix nothing.
 
The problem is the infrastructure, particularly the highway system, has exceeded it's design life. Don't forget dams, water/sewage systems, communication nets, pipelines ect. Applying leeches to it won't cure the problem.Nor will term limits. The cure is money.
So how do you raise the money. State and local gov't cover about 75% of the costs.
Raise taxes on gas or other things?
Make the user pay thru toll 's.
Actually its gonna be all of the above, and more.
 
I  think doing nothing will turn the whole state into a Detroit.

[lifefeedsonlife]

Lifetime -

I agree. It's an honest management issue. I think government as management is not very good at doing wht they are supposed to be doing. the larger things get - the more ineffient it becomes. Give the Feds, State, and Local stuff what should be designated to the Fed, State, and Local levels.

I see a growing rift between urban / rural interests . . . well evidenced by parrty registration . . . .

[NightmarePatrol]

There is absolutely a growing rift between urban and rural communities. Of course theres a widening definition of what's rural and what's not. With the slow but steady sprawl of Erie and Youngstown one could argue that Meadville and Sharon are suburban rather than rural.  Meadville certainly has a better claim then Sharon to rural status but truth is Meadville is a small city.  Fredonia, Sandy Lake, Cochranton, etc get the rural stamp. Anyhow the rift has been growing for quite a while as much by definition as the encroachment of urban sprawl.. 

I believe the big concern many people have is the toll money would wind up in Philadelphia rather than being spread out or perhaps even being used to maintain the roadway. As I understand it (and I may be wrong here), if 80 becomes a toll road then PA will lose much if not all of its funding from the feds for maintenance as well. Yes infrastructure needs to be maintained, but is the state shooting itself in the foot by placing tolls on 80? It's the most convenient route for may trucks, but it's not the only route. I hope they really think this proposal through before they pull the trigger.