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[GROK]

Let me preface this topic by informing you that I am a big Star Trek fan as well as generally a SciFi-Fantasy voracious reader.
I was sitting at the kitchen table with my lovely and intelligent wife when a stray conversation topic meandered into my supratentorial synapses. Using the backdrop of the "eugenic wars" from "Wrath of Khan", I posited to my wife that eugenics is unfairly demonized by the masses. Now don't get me wrong, I deplore forced attempts at eugenics (e.g. Nazi Germany), however, I feel that the human race is very close to or presently at a nexus. My wife and I are disheartened by the lack of today's youth to have the ability accomplishing such simple tasks as doing rapid purely mental arithmetic or even read a non-digital clock (hence a contributor to our desire to home school).
   I see two discrete pathways for the betterment of humanity. One is to continue on the present course whereby our innate mentating abilities will be supplanted by machines through our increasing dependence on technology and the other is to accentuate our potential by exploring non-forced eugenics. To a certain extent, we already do this through selecting appropriate mates, but with our increasing knowledge of the human genome, can we (or should we) accelerate this process?
    I personally would rather see humans actuate their full potentials than become solely reliant on technology. However, given the propensity of the leeches on our society to breed without forethought and the resultant "dumbing down" of our genetic pool, I fear our society will become that envisioned in the excellent 1951 short story by C.M. Kornbluth "the Marching Morons"
www.wattpad.com/111513-the-marching-morons-c-m-kornbluth
This story is well worth the read even if you are not a SciFi buff.
 
I hope this generates some lively discussion!

[Puffin]

So your solution is to eliminate those by your standard you deem mentally defective.
Sorry GROK, but I think thats a KROK
 
But if you want to play GOD, how bout a balanced budget!!!
 
 

[NightmarePatrol]

This has smacks of 1984 in a way where the prediction about choosing the characteristics of your child pre-conception was discussed. That being said my kids are doing far more in school than I ever did that their age. I think there are priorities of what should be taught in our schools where what is pertinent to the current times are. Meadville had two computers in school for student use in the mid 70's. No computer classes were required then as it was deemed to be a scientific discipline. Now it's pretty much a compulsory activity. I think kids can abstract things much better than I or my peers could at that age since they are presented with technological stimulus on a daily basis.

I remember that my parents were upset that I was not taught certain things in school that they were. It hasn't seemed to affect me. That being said I still think math skills are a "must" because it's more part of everyday life than it gets credit for. Okay, as far as the eugenics thing goes... I don't know if we should be diddling around with DNA to build a better human or not. I think it's a great idea for treatment of disease and other conditions where it would be useful. Building a better human is a massive ethics question for me.

[GROK]

So your solution is to eliminate those by your standard you deem mentally defective.
Sorry GROK, but I think thats a KROK
 
But if you want to play GOD, how bout a balanced budget!!!

Sorry, the topic accidentally published before I completed it, hence the subsequent modification.
 
The thrust of my position is not to actively eliminate those who are mentally defective (that would be abhorrent) but to work on elevating the general intelligence level of the human race instead of seeing it descend along the path it is currently following.
 
I do not know the mind of God but I suspect he would not want his creation to procreate itself into "The Marching Morons" scenario.
 
n.b. Since we cannot seem to coerce our elected officials into achieving a balanced budget, I am all for forcing them to abide by one by constitutional amendment.

[GROK]

Okay, as far as the eugenics thing goes... I don't know if we should be diddling around with DNA to build a better human or not. I think it's a great idea for treatment of disease and other conditions where it would be useful. Building a better human is a massive ethics question for me.

Genetically treating diseases is generally considered ethical but realize that by doing that, it IS building a better human albeit specific to that human who is suffering from the aforementioned disease amenable to treatment. My topic premise is merely for contemplation but I cannot close my mind to the potential of it merely because most people's knee-jerk reaction is to discount it as playing God or to extrapolate it to extremes. Perhaps a thoroughly thought out approach and discussion may identify most pitfalls to it (although unintended consequences will always rear their ugly heads). After all, I do not know of many loving parents who would not want their children to be more accomplished than they themselves are/were. I want my children to be smarter, stronger, etc. than I am.

[lifefeedsonlife]

Here's my take in a nutshell.

The humans that were best adapted to their environment were the ones that survived in the environment. It took intelligence to survive in this world and those with more intelligence tended to survive better and therefore bred.

Dumb folks didn't fare so well - and that very well could have been what happened to our cousins - the Neanderthals. though they were pretty smart by "primitive" standards - they aren't around now.

Over time - we got so good at adapting, we actually started manipulating the environment to suit our needs and industrialized agriculture was made so efficient we had a surplus of food so that now - even people who weren't so smart had a damn good shot at survival and breeding too!

And over the past 100 years - our species population has increased from 1.7B to todays 6.7B.

That's phenomenal!

And very problematic - ain't it?

So - in the interest of our species survival - we're indeed at a Nexus aren't we? One of two things is going to happen. The grid is going to change to become more sustainable and balanced with the environment we're in or it's going to collapse when the energy it takes to sustain it fails.

Most folks don't know how to survive in any other system than the one we've devised - which is the antithesis of what has gotten us to where we are.

So - when the defecation strikes the rotary oscillator (and it will at some point) - the folks that'll make it are the ones with the brains to figure out how.

I don't think eugenics is the answer . . . the issue of 'environmental' intelligence takes care of itself without us imposing our ideas . . . .

[GROK]

Grok just to think that at one time we were to meet. We thought we had a lot of views in common. I was going to reach out to you later this spring and try to get together since the last time it did not happen. Now after reading this topic, if sometime we may meet I am afraid that after conversing with you and I do not meet the right intelligent level that you may expect, well you may want to eliminate me. Now you scare me... ... ... ...

No need to be scared   I am merely putting forth ideas for discussion. I have yet to interact with anyone on this forum who has a paltry intellect. You and I do see eye to eye on numerous levels!

[lifefeedsonlife]

Of course - what I proposed there doesn't favor the altruist does it? And why does a society (such as ours anyway) value the altruist so much?

Dammit Grok -

Now I'm gonna be distracted thinkin' about this all day!

[Zipper]

When I think about all the time I spent in school trying to learn math... which I am still bad at... when I could have used a calculator and freed up my mind to work on problems I could solve, it's an easy answer for me.

Yes, math is essential and everyone should know how to read a sun dial to know the time of day, but we have clocks for that now. Some people excell in areas that others do not, but everyone contributes something.

I read a book by Larry Burkette "Solar Flare" http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Flare-Novel-Larry-Burkett/dp/1881273075 which told about a worse-case scenario of interruption of our machines due to a solar flare and the disruption of our electrical usages.

In this case, the Amish win, as they have been living without the use of modern conveniences all along.

So who is the better "human"? One with a better physical body and strength, one with a master mind and computer skills, or one with common sense and ingenuity? It's a combo of all types that makes our world work. As one person contributes to the sciences, another contributes to the arts, and some just procreate, and those weaker and less able contribute to our sense of humanity; our compassion and our kindness.

It's all necessary. God had a plan. It's too perfect to have been an accident or a "big bang".

"The grid is going to change to become more sustainable and balanced with the environment we're in or it's going to collapse when the energy it takes to sustain it fails."

It is people who are never satisfied, always wanting bigger, better, more, and more.

Take away the conveniences for one week this summer, shut off the TVs, spend a week without electronics, and it's such a nice world we live in. Rent a cabin at Cook's Forest and live simply, just for a week. Your kids will be thrilled to ride the creek up there in an inner tube, go hunting in the forest for flowers, breathe the fresh air. No phones, no Ipods, just a campfire and a few marshmallows. Let your imaginations be free again.

Of course it's practically impossible to get by without some of the spoils of the human contribution. You'll have to drive to get there, cook on the gas stove in the cabin or refrigerate the groceries you'll bring, sleep in commercially sewn bedding, shower in the community shower, but it's truly a downsizing.

[TiFeMb]

Contribute to and support the Arts. That is where we are different from animals...

[GROK]

Zip,
I agree with nearly 100% of what you stated. The only portion I have issues with is the "everyone contributes"
While I agree with the statement, the truth is that everyone does not contribute "positively" to society. There are thugs and welfare leeches that I believe are a detriment to us all.
 
Personally, I love nature and have done all of the outdoor activities that you have described.

[GROK]

  ...but you still Scare Me... ...

Scary as in "This chocolate cake is scary good" or scary as in " He always seemed like a friendly neighbor who pretty much kept to himself before this happened...."
Scarey

[NightmarePatrol]

I can't say that treating diseases is necessarily building better humans, just repairing the ones we have. That is unless this stuff finds it's was back into the DNA pool. Given a total collapse of our infrastructure and with the population of those who have not been shown how to survive it would pose an interesting test of genetic memory and just how far it goes. Building better humans is not out of our reach, but it could have a huge impact on the natural selection process down the road.

[lifefeedsonlife]

Epigenetics has peaked my interestof late. Seems that those of us longest lived were born when food was scarce. I've had 3 great grandparents live into their 100's, but they were born at a time when things were tight in their little corner of the world.

Epigeneticists are talking about my great grandparents' code being written in such a way (through their parents' DNA who were in the environment in the time of less than plenty) that they are geared to be "hardier" as a response to the environment. The hypothesis is that our DNA is not static, but changes as our environement changes and our children's original (and potential) coding is strongly affected by that.

The concept of genetic memory is fascinating - and I think there is some merit to it.

Which raises the question: Where do Jungian Archetypes really come from? I think there's more to the collective subconscious than folks who are into that sort of thing think.

Another thing I find interesting is that evolution kinda flies in the face of entropy don't you think? But then - on the flipside of that same coin, while matter may proceed from order to chaos - energy proceeds from chaos to order.

So - what are we anyway?

(Dammit Grok. I'm not getting much work done for all this fanciful thinkin'!)

[GROK]

Question: Where do Jungian Archetypes really come from?Answer: Midi-chlorians 
 
"Another thing I find interesting is that evolution kinda flies in the face of entropy don't you think? But then - on the flipside of that same coin, while matter may proceed from order to chaos - energy proceeds from chaos to order. "

Perhaps to maintain equilibrium in this macrocosm, when we "evolve" there is a corresponding devolution (DEVO...crack that whip) necessitated somewhere else. Hopefully we can prevent our becoming the feeder of something else's evolution.LOL