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[gore range]

...."Never let a serious crisis go to waste. What I mean by that is it's an opportunity to do things you couldn't do before." ....


....on the other hand-


....I'm not going to see my taxes "...go up one thin dime..."


....reassuring to see democracy is action....
[/]

[Lifetime]

Isn't Emanuel a Sweetheart *S*
 

...."Never let a serious crisis go to waste. What I mean by that is it's an opportunity to do things you couldn't do before." ....


....on the other hand-


....I'm not going to see my taxes "...go up one thin dime..."


....reassuring to see democracy is action....
[/]

[Puffin]

O-L-I-G-A-R-C-H-Y

Weird blame stuff goin on. Seems like a couple of weeks agothat guy Rand Paul was the darlin of the new wave. Then he made that "Shit happens remark, let the market solve the problem".
Now these same disciples of deregulation and no Federal involvement in anything accuse Obama of doing too little too late.
L-A-I-S-S-E-Z  F-A-I-R-E

[lifefeedsonlife]

Well - the market does take care of itself if left alone. And it ain't always good when it does . . . this leak in the ocean is another thing though. In these odd times we live (but thenve all been off if our species is involved) I get the sense there's more underpinning to this than folks think.

[Lifetime]

Deregulation is a bain and a boom.... you just have to determine who is honest in their activities....
 
The Market.... allowed to work and the participants being honest, do solve the problems.... better, faster and cheaper than the Government. It is when GREED becomes the word of the day, does anything being done by Private and Public Sector harmful to those around them. Lets go back and blame our whoas on Adam, Cain, Jesus, Jews... It is all according to who's ox got gored and how we react afterwards. The crap we are in right now.... can be blamed on our Government, past and present and to our citizens... ( Did our CITIZENS enjoy the dividends from BP, ENRON, BERNIE MADOFF.... ETC. ) We don't care where the money comes from, as long as it comes to us. No one has clean hands in this. Many people may have benefitted from shortcuts and unsafe practices. But.... this shouldn't be one of those "Never waste a good crisis." moment either. Greed isn't just for money and riches...it is for Power and Control as well.

[lifefeedsonlife]

I agree with assessment 100%

[Puffin]

Well - the market does take care of itself if left alone. And it ain't always good when it does . . .

Life the market has been the problem of late. Enron, the Banking and finance industries, BP ect have taken indefencible risks primarily driven by greed with no consideration for the consequences. BP's own internal memo's  state that the company systematically put safety at risk.
One of those memo's placed in testimony at the senate hearings said this:
"One BP engineer warned a colleague that the oil well had become a “nightmare” while executives were given a list of recommended safety measures which they chose to ignore. One BP official wrote a note that read: “Who cares, it’s done, end of story, will probably be fine.”
 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7150296.ece

Lots of verbage on the fate of the tourist, fishing industries and the people that depend on the.
But there are others getting pounded too. Here are BP's top 10 U.S. Pension Plan investors , and the number of shares they hold. They have already lost almost 50% on equity, and it's doubtful that BP will make dividend payments. Public employee Pensions are generally underfunded. The Calif. plan may have to borrow $400M to make obligations.

•The New Jersey Division of Investment (51 million shares)

•The California Public Employees Retirement System (36 million shares)

•The Pennsylvania Public School Employees Retirement System (7.1 million shares)

•The Teachers Retirement System of Alabama (4.5 million shares)

•The Employees Retirement System of Texas (4.1 million shares)

•The Ohio Public Employees Retirement System (1.1 million shares)

•The Illinois State Board of Investment (1.1 million shares)

•The Indiana Public Employees' Retirement Fund (0.7 million shares)

•The Washington State Investment Board (1.2 million shares
 
This disaster isn't an aberation. It's a continuation of a long string of disasters
all with the same menu of enablers.

[NightmarePatrol]

So did anyone watch the Oval Office Address last night? Much of what Obama said was pretty much stating the obvious, but there were some good points made. Mainly the lack of R&D spending on behalf of the oil industry. They have the funds to do it, they just haven't spent too much on developing better and less error prone extraction methods. On the "green energy" thing... that is pretty much a given. Until we can develop a lot of things that are not petroleum based we will still have a need for the stuff. From the energy stand point the oil companies really don't have much of an interest in developing anything green because it cuts into their bottom line, unless of course it fits into their infrastructure of gathering resources.

A very short list of what is made from oil: Ammonia, Anesthetics, Antihistamines, Artificial limbs, Artificial Turf, Antiseptics, Aspirin, Auto Parts, Awnings, Balloons, Ballpoint pens, Bandages, Beach Umbrellas, Boats, Cameras, Candles, Car Battery Cases, Carpets, Caulking, Combs, Cortisones, Cosmetics, Crayons, Credit Cards, Curtains, Deodorants, Detergents, Dice, Disposable Diapers, Dolls, Dyes, Eye Glasses, Electrical Wiring Insulation, Faucet Washers, Fishing Rods, Fishing Line, Fishing Lures, Food Preservatives, Food Packaging, Garden Hose, Glue, Hair Coloring, Hair Curlers, Hand Lotion, Hearing Aids, Heart Valves, Ink, Insect Repellant, Insecticides, Linoleum, Lip Stick, Milk Jugs, Nail Polish, Oil Filters, Panty Hose, Perfume, Petroleum Jelly, Rubber Cement, Rubbing Alcohol,  Shampoo, Shaving Cream, Shoes, Toothpaste, Trash Bags, Upholstery, Vitamin Capsules, Water Pipes, Yarn

[Lifetime]

Hmmmm green energy..... let's not even consider that list of things needing petroleum products to be produced... Lets go to the materials involved in making components of a giant wind or solar generator.... think a bit..
 
Now..on to what I love the best.... ELECTRIC CARS. Lets see... metal, plastics and Oh yes.... just how in He!! do you think electricity is generated sans about 12% in these United States. Now lets go to battery technology.... Has anyone ever had to get ride of an acid battery or even rid themselves of NI-CADs and Liths ..in a legal manner??? We eliminate one class of trash for another and we are STILL in the same boat and in some cases... with even more expenses. Anyone who thinks we are on the cusp of dumping oil/coal as king of energy is dreaming or smoking something.
 
All this crap is going to do is ALLOW.... yes ALLOW prices of Petrol and Coal to go up with added taxes. This in turn will either kill a transportation industry or control the very movement of what we thought was free citizenry. Pittsburgh is going through this right now.... use of Public Transportation as high as a $7 one way ticket for people trying to make ends meet on minimum or close to minimum wages. This was to be taken care of by.... Yup..a TOLL (TAX) on I-80. Now you see the cockroaches in Harrisburg jumping to find a way to TAX us to cover that yet again with... AH HA....gas tax increase, increase of fees on natural gas drilling.... have you seen a theme in this yet?
 
Plan....
 
Make it impossible to drill because the Government OWNS the land over the large reserves...
 
Tax the purchase of the product to finance BS programs that should stand on their own or have better ways of completing...
 
Make everything COST Prohibitive to the point of begging the Government to help by subsidies to even live with basics.
 
This makes people dependent and very controlable. Force them back into the cities, and brought under an umbrella of preceived "Necessary Guardianship". If you don't think this is true.... check closer at PODs called Public Housing/Section 8 and look close at the Welfare system we have right now. Kept class of people dependent on the Government for their next breath and scared to vote against those who want to keep them there.
 
If you don't see this then I engage you to see the ACTUAL price of a gallon of gasoline, cubic foot of natural gas, and even the kilowatt ...BEFORE all the taxes are added, even now.
 
In the end.... this is one of HOW MANY WELLS in the Gulf? How many are run successfully? Did Three Mile Island stop and close down all Nuclear Power Plants? Did Chernobyl stop the Nuclear Industry? At best, it was an arguement to tax it even more... ( Read Higher Prices for us) and make it damned near impossible to build new ones...remember we have had one, on paper, for over a decade and the permits are still not done. Progress... my ARSE. If you believe Obama ..God Bless You... I heard between the lines.... " We will kill the Oil Industry faster now and create an enemy out of an allie,Great Britain... even though BP is not entirely a British Company...a lot of the ownership is AMERICAN. Kill the industry and watch the unemployment numbers. If you think the 70's and these last few years were bad.... here is a hankie, because you are going to need it.
 
When you hear all of this.... you will be feeling someone elses hands in your pocket...none yours or your family.
 
 
 
 

[TiFeMb]

I reiterate: If people than CAN ride bicycles DO ride bicycles, we would go a long way toward knocking down our useage. Put up a passive solar water heater. recycle. The problem is almost NOBODY (by percentage) does these things. When gas hit $4 I saw a lot of people on the bus and riding their fat @$$ on a bicycle. Maybe that's what is going to take.
 
I lived in Pittsburgh from 1986-1990 and didn't own a car. Lived in Wilkinsburg, worked downtown, partied in Duquesne. (yea, I was totally ghetto and loved it at the time) My bus pass was $35 for unlimited ridership. I could get anywhere from Wilkinsburg to McKeesport to Duquesne to South Park and even to WEXFORD (additional $1). THAT my friends, was public transportation.
 
Ko-Shin: I drank back then so it was very convenient, just had to time my exit out of the bars at Pitt so I didn't have to walk all the way up Penn Ave to get home 
 
I also remember walking from Meadville out to the mall on a regular basis. Worked at Ponderosa and walked out there in the winter. Come on people, give up the Escalade!!!

[NightmarePatrol]

A long time ago we talked about the issue of electrics being rolling toxic waste dumps. Personally I live on the edge of the suburbs, basically a little past where the cows start. I like it and I don't want to move "closer in". This is not going to stop the oil business and nothing is. I'm just saying the oil industry has little to no interest in pursuing anything that affects their bread and butter. We're also happy to use all the oil they want provide for us as well.

The change will eventually come. Weather it comes in our lifetime remains to be seen. My kids will see it. I'd rather we prepare something for them than place them into a knee-jerk crisis to have to adapt. No matter what it's going to be painfull.

[beanie]

Hey there ee Ticket forum members, from the currently oil-free Central Florida Gulf coast. Before I go back and read this thread in its entirety, our esteemed (and evenly tanned) Governor wants me to remind you that our beaches are open for business. 
 
 

[NightmarePatrol]

Hmmm another person here from the bay area (I'm in Pasco)

Welcome aboard.

[beanie]

I'm an old Hey Martha poster.
 
My old login wasn't working, so I had to re-register. 

[Lifetime]

Please understand this..... The oil companies are heavily vested in the "alternative" Energy sources... BP especially. They will get their "Pound of Flesh" no matter how this pie is cut. Shell is into Hydogen and some even in the set up of the Geo Thermal power of Iceland. Dino Fuel is but one area they are involved in. You will NOT escape...except through death....
 
My only fear in all of this..... will be able to afford to be dragged to this?? I think dollars are but one way to afford..... I also like my freedoms as well. How much of the latter are you willing to give up? Umbilical cords are a good thing for babies in the womb but from birth...a baby's goal is freedom.... just ask them when they turn 18. I am in my 60s and am not in AARP nor seek Senior Menus. I am not on SS but I did pay into it and may wait. I never collected welfare short of foodstamps for a wife and child while I was in the military ( 3 months worth). I am not in any hurry to reconnect the umbilical again and I see all this crap as a way to force this to happen.
 
And again.... go ahead and ride your bikes, install your solar panels and wind generators,  but... don't force me to do the same. My idea of life and freedom are different from yours.
 
There will ALWAYS be some crisis to cause a KNEE JERK. Our children and Grand Children will be facing their problems too. I just hope they know the difference between a better life or a rope on their neck pulling them "towards the processing plant". I don't want to be a lemming, let alone raise any.
 
 

A long time ago we talked about the issue of electrics being rolling toxic waste dumps. Personally I live on the edge of the suburbs, basically a little past where the cows start. I like it and I don't want to move "closer in". This is not going to stop the oil business and nothing is. I'm just saying the oil industry has little to no interest in pursuing anything that affects their bread and butter. We're also happy to use all the oil they want provide for us as well.

The change will eventually come. Weather it comes in our lifetime remains to be seen. My kids will see it. I'd rather we prepare something for them than place them into a knee-jerk crisis to have to adapt. No matter what it's going to be painfull.